FOUNDATION AND THE CHARLES A. FR EUAU IF, F FOUNDATION.

>> BLACK LIVES MATTER HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF NEGATIVE RESPONSE, BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL THREATENED BY JUST THE NEGOTIATION.

RIGHT?

AND SO PEOPLE DON'T THINK OF IT AS BLACK LIVES MATTER, TOO, OR AS WELL.

THEY THINK THAT IF YOU SAY BLACK LIVES MATTER, THEN YOU'RE SAYING OTHER LIVES DON'T MATTER.

>> IN THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT, WOMEN HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE ATTENTION THAT THEY DESERVE.

>> IS WOMEN STARTED BLACK LIVES MATTER.

>> HELLO, AND WELCOME TO DO THE CONTRARY.

THIS WEEK WE SPEAK WITH DUCHESS HARRIS, AUTHOR AND PROFESSOR SPECIALIZING IN BLACK FEMINISM AND U.S. LAW.

HER NEW BOOK IS CALLED BLACK FEMINIST POLITICS FROM KENNEDY TO TRUMP.

SO PROFESSOR HARRIS, WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT'S OUR PLEASURE.

SO FIRST PLEASE DEFINE BLACK FEMINISM FOR ME.

>> SURE.

BLACK FEMINISM IS A CONCEPT THAT CAME ABOUT IN THE 1960S AS A RESPONSE TO MEN DOMINATING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, AND THEN MIDDLE-CLASS WHITE WOMEN DOMINATING WHAT WE WOULD CALL NOW SECOND WAVE FEMINISM.

AND SO IT WAS TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY CAME FROM WORKING CLASS BACKGROUNDS, DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF CLASS PRIVILEGE, DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO EDUCATION, AND WAS OPEN TO THINKING ABOUT DIFFERENT LIFESTYLES THAT WEREN'T BEING ADDRESSED.

>> WELL, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE 60S, WAS IT, FOR EXAMPLE, SHIRLEY CHISOLM RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, WAS IT THAT THE WHITE MIDDLE-CLASS WOMEN WHO DOMINATED , WAS IT THAT THEY WOULDN'T LET BLACK WOMEN INTO WHAT THEY WERE CREATING?

SECOND WAVE FEMINISM?

OR WAS IT THAT BLACK WOMEN WANTED TO GO OFF AND FORM THEIR OWN VERSION OF IT?

>> PART OF IT WAS THAT THEIR LIVES DIDN'T OVERLAP THAT MUCH.

AND SO MY BOOK, THE POINT OF DEPARTURE, IS 1963, AND THE REASON WHY I PICKED 1963 IS BECAUSE IT'S THE FEAR BETTY FREI DAN WROTE THE MEMORANDUM INITIAL MISTAKE.

SHE WRITES ABOUT WOMEN FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT IN THE WORKFORCE.

WHAT SHE MEANS IS AN EDUCATE WHITE COLLAR WORKFORCE, BECOME PROFESSIONALS SIMILAR TO THE WORK THAT THEIR DADS WERE DOING OR THAT THEIR BROTHERS WERE ALLOWED TO DO.

63 IS ALSO THE YEAR THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON, WHERE WE HEAR FROM SOUTHERN BLACK MEN WHO ARE MINISTERS WHO ARE SPEAKING FOR THE BLACK RACE IN ITS ENTIRETY, BUT NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF BLACK WOMEN.

SO THAT'S WHERE SOMEONE LIKE SHIRLEY CHISOLM COMES ALONG AND SAYS, LOOK BE THERE'S A SPACE TO TALK ABOUT THE INTERSECTION OF BOTH RACISM AND SEXISM.

>> WAS THERE BEEN A POINT SINCE THE 60S WHERE FEMINISTS.

ALL COLORS HAVE COME TOGETHER AND YOU CAN NOW TALK ABOUT MEMORANDUM INITIAL THAT INCLUDES WOMEN OF COLOR AS OPPOSED TO BLACK FEMINISM AND WHITE FEMINISM?

>> I MEAN, DEFINITELY.

THE SECOND WAVE OF FEMINISM ALWAYS INCLUDED WOMEN OF COLOR.

SO FOR INSTANCE, THE NATIONAL O FOR WOMEN HAD PROMINENT BLACK WOMEN WHO WERE INVOLVED IN IT.

ALICE WALKER WAS INVOLVED IN IT.

LET'S SEE.

I MEAN, SHIRLEY CHISOLM WAS INVOLVED IN IT.

THERE WERE PLENTY OF WOMEN.

THE SAME THING WITH NEWS MAGAZINE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A SPACE FOR THAT.

ONE OF THE ISSUES, OF COURSE, HAS ALWAYS BEEN, YOU KNOW, THE CLASS POLITICS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WHO LIKE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON AND SHIRLEY CHISOLM, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE SITUATED VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN, SAY, BLUE COLLAR WORKING CLASS BLACK WOMEN.

>> TELL ME THE IMPORTANCE ABOUT WHO ARE THE MAIN FIGURES AT THE BEGINNING?

YOU TALKED WITH SHIRLEY CHISOLM, ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON.

I REMEMBER STOKELY CARMICHAEL, WHOSE NAME CHANGED LATER ON.

BUT HE WAS THE ONE WHO SAID WHAT'S THE POSITION OF WOMEN IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT?

AND HE SAID, THEIR POSITION IS PRONE.

THAT WAS THE EARLY 60S.

RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> AND HOW HAVE THINGS CHANGED FOR WOMEN OF COLOR SINCE THEN?

>> ONE OF THE REASONS WHY YOU GET BLACK WOMEN SO ORGANIZED AROUND FEMINISM WOULD BE IN RESPONSE TO TO THE PRONE COMMENT , BECAUSE ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES THAT MADE BLACK WOMEN FEEL LIKE THEY NEEDED TO STAND A LITTLE SEPARATELY FROM BLACK MEN AND A LITTLE SEPARATELY FROM WHITE WOMEN WAS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

SO FOR INSTANCE, WHITE WOMEN REALLY WEREN'T ORGANIZED AROUND GETTING THE BIRTH CONTROL PILL, LEGALIZING WHAT HAPPENED IN 1969 OF COURSE, THEY WERE REALLY ACTIVE AROUND ROE V. WADE, 1973.

BLACK WOMEN WERE WORRIED ABOUT FORCED STERILIZATION AND SO WERE LATINO WOMEN.

FORCED STERILIZATION WASN'T SOMETHING THAT MIDDLE-CLASS WHITE WOMEN WERE TALKING ABOUT.

A LOT OF BLACK MEN -- >> HOW OFTEN E TELL ME ABOUT FORCED STERILIZATION OF BLACK WOMEN.

>> SURE.

>> WHERE DID IT OCCUR?

WHEN DID IT OCCUR?

>> PROMINENT EXAMPLE WOULD BE SOMEONE LIKE FANNY LOU HAMER INVOLVED IN THE MISSISSIPPI FREEDOM DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND SHE SPOKE AT THE 1964 DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION WHEN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WAS STILL SEGREGATED.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT FANNY LOU HAMER ACTUALLY HAD AN EXPERIENCE THAT WAS CALLED A MISSISSIPPI APPENDECTOMY.

WHAT THAT WAS IS SHE WAS STERILIZED WITHOUT HER PERMISSION.

THAT HAPPENED QUITE FREQUENTLY -- >> WHO WAS DOING THIS?

>> OB/GYNS WHO WANTED TO DO EXPERIMENTAL MEDICINE.

BACK IN THE DAY, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED ABSURD.

PEOPLE WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE THIS NEVER HAPPEN.

RIGHT?

BECAUSE THIS WAS BEFORE ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF SAY THE TUSKEGEE EXPERIMENT.

NOW WE KNOW THESE THINGS DID HAPPEN VERY MUCH.

THEY ALSO HAPPENED TO TWO MEXICAN AMERICAN WOMEN IN THE SOUTHWEST AND WOMEN MOORE PLANT WAS BEING EXPERIMENTED WITH IN THE 80S, THEY EXPERIMENTED ON A LOT OF PUERTO RICAN WOMEN IN THE NEW YORK/BOSTON AREA.

SO REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS WAS VERY DIFFERENT FOR PARTICULARLY DISADVANTAGED WOMEN OF COLOR THAN, SAY, WHITE WOMEN WITH SOME ECONOMIC MEANS.

SO THAT WAS PARTLY WHY BLACK FEMINISTS SAY WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

AND A LOT OF BLACK MEN WERE NOT IN FAVOR OF REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

THEY SAID THAT THIS WAS A WAY TO ANNIHILATE THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND THIS WAS A WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DIDN'T REPRODUCE, AND SO THEY WERE HAD HE OPPOSED TO THE LEGALLY LEGALIZATION OF BIRTH CONTROL.

AND AS FAR AS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ARE CONCERNED, SINCE THE 60S, HAS -- HAVE BLACK FEMINISTS BECOME MORE CONSERVATIVE ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS?

I MEAN, I'VE LISTENED TO A LOT OF SPEECHES PARTICULARLY FROM WOMEN OF COLOR WHO ARE, I KNOW, CHURCH MEMBERS, STRONG MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH AND THEY OWE POSE THE RIGHT TO ABORTION.

>> SURE.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT IT IS VERY RELIGIOUSLY BASED.

RIGHT?

AND SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS -- >> BUT IN THE 60S, IT WASN'T RELIGIOUSLY BASED.

RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

IN THE 60S, PART OF IT WAS CONCERN ACTUALLY ABOUT HEALTH.

RIGHT?

LIKE CONCERN THAT SOMETHING WAS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU THAT YOU DIDN'T EVEN REQUEST.

AND SO IF I SAY REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, PEOPLE ASSUME THAT I AM SAYING ABORTION.

REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND ABORTION ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ARE NOT HAVING AN OB/GYN TIE YOUR TUBES IF YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO.

>> UH-HUH.

>> COLTON WHITEHEAD IN THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD, PULITZER PRIZEWINNING AUTHOR, HE WROTE ABOUT STERILIZATION OF BLACK WOMEN IN THE PRECIVIL WAR SOUTH.

>> UH-HUH.

>> HAS IT GONE ON -- NOW AGAIN, THAT'S FICTION.

>> SURE.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF IT ACTUALLY WAS GOING ON BACK THEN.

THEY BASE IT HAD ON REALITY AND RESEARCH, BUT HAS IT GONE ON THAT LONG?

>> I MEAN, WHAT HAS GONE ON FOR HOW LONG IS THAT THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY HASN'T HAD A LOT OF PHYSICIANS, AND SO MY SPOUSE IS A PHYSICIAN, SO I'M FAMILIAR WITH THE POLITICS OF RACE IN HEALTHCARE.

AND SO ONE OF THE ISSUES IS JUST BEING ABLE TO HAVE CONTROL OVER YOUR BODY.

AND SO WHAT'S CONCERNING IS THAT IF YOU SAY REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, THEN YOU EVER PEOPLE WHO ARE PRO LIFE AND THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, WELL, I CAN'T RESPOND TO THAT.

AND IT'S MUCH BROADER THAN THAT.

>> IS IT STILL GOING ON?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU LIVE.

RIGHT?

I THINK THAT ACCESS HAS -- ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE HAS A LOT TO DO WITH HOW MUCH INSURANCE YOU HAVE AND HOW MUCH FORMAL EDUCATION YOU HAVE AS WELL TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF PAPERWORK YOU'RE SIGNING AND WHAT KIND OF QUESTIONS TO ANSWER.

>> IN A SENSE, SIMILAR TO TO THE ME TOO MOVEMENT, THE BLACK LIVES MATTERS MOVEMENT HAS RECEIVED POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE RESPONSES.

YOU TALK ABOUT THAT IN YOUR BOOK >> SURE.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF NEGATIVE RESPONSE, BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL THREATENED BY JUST THE NEGOTIATION.

RIGHT?

AND SO PEOPLE DON'T THINK OF IT AS AN AN BLACK LIVES MATTER TOO OR WELL: THEY THINK YOU'RE SAYING IF BLACK LIVES MALT I ARE , OTHER LIVES DON'T MATTER.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE AT ALL.

THE CASE IS TRYING TO ACKNOWLEDGE REPRESENTATION OF BLACK MEN, BUT ALSO MACK WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN SHOT AND NO ONE HAS BEEN CONVICT.

>> YOU THINK IN THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT WOMEN HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE ATTENTION THEY DESERVE >> WOMEN STARTED BLACK LIVES MATTER, SO BLACK LIVES MATTER WAS STARTED BY THREE BLACK WOMEN WHO IDENTIFY AS EITHER QUEER OR GENDER NON-CONFORMING WHO ARE IN THEIR 30S WHO STARTED TWEETING, AND SO IT'S ALSO WE HAVE OUR FIRST CYBER MOVEMENTS THAT AFTER GEORGE ZIMMERMAN BECAUSE ACQUITTED WHEN HE SHOT TRAYVON MARTIN.

THEY STARTED TWEETING BACK AND FORTH, LOOK AT THIS.

BLACK HASHTAG, BLACK LIVES MATTER.

SO IT STARTED IN CYBER SPACE AND THEN ABOUT 18 MONTHS LATER MICHAEL BROWN WAS KILLED IN FERGUSON.

THEN IT BECAME AN ON THE GROUND MOVEMENT.

THE PERCEPTION IS THAT IT'S ANTI-POLICE.

NOW, I HAVE A WRITTEN A BOOK ON RACE AND POLICING.

IF YOU THINK IT'S ANTI-POLICE, THAT DOESN'T REALLY INTERROGATE THE CONCEPT THAT POLICE OFFICERS COULD BE OF COLOR AS WELL.

RIGHT?

AND BLACK OFFICERS HAVE KILLED BLACK INDIVIDUALS.

>> EXACTLY.

AND SO IT ENDS UP BEING THIS REALLY SIMPLISTIC ANALYSIS OF, YOU KNOW, ANGRY BLACK PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE ANGRY WHO ARE AGAINST WHITE POLICE OFFICERS WHO ARE MORAL OR TRYING TO PROTECT NEIGHBORHOODS.

I THINK IT'S MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK, I MEAN, WHAT'S AMAZING TO ME IS EVEN AFTER ALL THESE MAJOR INCIDENTS YOU'RE TALKED ABOUT AND ALL OF THE PUBLICITY THAT POLICE KILLING OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN HAS GOTTEN, THAT IT STILL GOES ON.

WE STILL HEAR ABOUT IT FROM TIME TO TIME.

>> I MEAN, IT'S GOING TO GO ON BECAUSE POLICING IS SO ANXIETY PRONE.

RIGHT?

ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES THAT WE HAVE IN MINNEAPOLIS-ST. PAUL WITH POLICING IS THAT YOU'RE NOT REQUIRED TO LIVE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT YOU POLICE.

SO THERE'S SO MUCH RESENTMENT ABOUT POLICE OFFICERS NOT REALLY BEING CONNECTED TO THE COMMUNITY AND THEN COMING IN INSTEAD OF THE CITIZENS FEELING PROTECTED, THEY FEEL MISSED, WHICH IS VERY DIFFICULT THAN FEELING SAFE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT AFRICAN-AMERICANS WILL SOMEDAY REACH ECONOMIC PARITY?

>> OH, MY GOODNESS.

>> NO?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT THAT'S A LOFTY GOAL.

I THINK THAT THE DATA SUGGESTS THAT, YOU KNOW, SINCE RE CONSTRUCTION, OUR WEALTH HASN'T INCREASED MORE THAN 5%.

AND SO IT WILL TAKE HUNDREDS OF YEARS FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS TO BE PREPARED.

>> IS THERE ANY WAY BLACK FEMINISTS CAN GET TOGETHER AND HASTEN THAT GOAL?

HASTEN REACHING THAT GOAL A LITTLE SOONER?

>> I THINK SOME OF IT COMES THROUGH ELECTORAL POLITICS.

RIGHT?

SOME OF IT IS OUTSIDE OF THAT AND SOME OF IT IS WITHIN IT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, AS WE'RE TAPING THIS EPISODE, WE HAVE THIS GUBERNATORIAL RACE IN GEORGIA WITH STACY ABRAMS.

RIGHT?

SHE WOULD IDENTIFY AS A FEMINIST ALL BLACK WOMEN IN POLITICS DON'T.

AND I THINK HOW THAT WOULD CHANGE THE TERRAIN, LIKE WE'VE NEVER HAD A BLACK WOMAN GOVERNOR TO HAVE A BLACK WOMAN GOVERNOR, PARTICULARLY IN A SOUTHERN STATE , THAT WOULD HAVE A BIG IMPACT.

>> WOULD IT HAVE A BIGGER IMPACT THAN HAVING HAD A BLACK MALE PRESIDENT?

>> SEE, I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE POLICY ISSUE THAT WE'RE ADDRESSING, BECAUSE WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY IS THAT THERE WERE SOME THINGS THAT HE DID THAT, YOU KNOW, MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN SO HELPFUL IN TERMS OF BLACK FEMINISM SUCH AS HE FIRED SHIRLEY SHAROD, BUT THERE WERE THINGS THAT HE TRIED TO DO LIKE APPOINT LORETTA LYNCH TO BE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND IF HE DID GO THROUGH 5 MONTHS AFTER THE FACT, WELL, THEN SHE WASN'T ABLE TO BE IN THAT POSITION VERY LONG , BECAUSE BY THAT TIME, HIS PRESIDENCY AS OVER.

SO SOME OF THAT WAS STRUCTURAL.

>> AS WE'RE TAPING, WE DON'T KNOW IF STACY ABRAMS HAS WON OR NOT.

IF SHE DOESN'T WIN, HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE BEFORE WE DO GET A BLACK WOMAN GOVERNOR?

>> I MEAN, THAT IS HARD TO PREDICT.

I MEAN, THE ONE THING I CAN SAY IS THAT WE CAN LOOK AT SEVEN AN IT KAMALA HARRIS, FOR INSTANCE.

SO IT TOOK US MAYBE 25 YEARS TO GO FROM CAROL MOSLEY BRAUN TO KAMALA HARRIS, MOSLEY BRAUN BEING THE ONLY BLACK WOMAN IN THE SENATE UNTIL KAMALA HARRIS COMES ALONG.

WE CAN LOOK AT THE WORK THAT SHE'S DOING.

>> AND SHE'S GOING TO BE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

IN 2020.

>> HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL.

RIGHT?

>> WELL, I GUESS IT WILL DEPEND ON HER NUMBERS AND HOW MUCH MONEY SHE'S ABLE TO RAISE.

>> EXACTLY.

>> POLL NUMBERS AND HOW MUCH MONEY SHE'S ABLE TO RAISE AND IT'S GOING TO BE A VERY PROUDED FIELD, AS WE KNOW, AMONG DEMOCRATS.

DO YOU FIND THAT THE ANITA HILL AND DR. FORD TESTIMONIES WERE DIFFERENT AND IF SO, HOW AND HOW DID RACE PLAY INTO BOTH WOMEN'S CASES BEFORE THE SENATE?

>> SURE.

I THINK THEY WERE VERY DIFFERENT IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

THE FIRST ONE WOULD BE THAT DR. FORD CHOSE TO COME FORWARD.

A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT NOT REMEMBER THAT PROFESSORHILL WAS COERCED TO COME FORWARD, BECAUSE KNOWN TOTENBURG WITH NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS AND REPORTED IT.

PROFESSORHILL WAS VERY RELUCTANT , SO THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

THE POLITICAL MOMENT OF -- >> BUT DR. BLASEY FORD WAS ALSO KIND OF FORCED.

SHE DIDN'T WANT TO -- SHE DID MAKE HERSELF KNOWN.

>> SHE MADE HERSELF KNOWN.

>> AND THE CONGRESSWOMAN IN CALIFORNIA, SHE DID NOT WANT TO TESTIFY AND WAS FORCED TO TESTIFY.

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, I CAN SEE THAT.

PROFESSOR HILL DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO BE KNOWN.

AND WITH DR. 40 GOING TO SEND AN TERMS, EVEN IF SHE DIDN'T WANT TO TESTIFY, I WOULD THINK THAT SHE AT LEAST UNDERSTOOD THAT THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A POSSIBILITY.

>> SO HOW DID THAT CHANGE WHAT CAME OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS?

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT CAME OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS, OF COURSE, DIFFERENT INCIDENTS, THERE ARE DEFINITELY SOME SIMILARITIES.

I THINK ONE OF THE BIG DIFFERENCES IS HOW WE HEARD THEM , AND SO PROFESSOR HILL IS DOING THIS IN 1991 AND AT THE TIME, OF COURSE, OUT OF 100 SENATORS, ONLY TWO ARE WOMEN.

AND SO THE LANDSCAPE HAS CHANGED ALSO, OUR LEXICON HAS CHANGED.

WE DIDN'T EACH HAVE THE PHRASE SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN 1991 IF YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE TAPES.

PEOPLE WERE SAYING SEX HARASSMENT.

AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANT OR IF IT WAS ILLEGAL, AND SO THAT'S A BIG PART OF THIS IS THAT WHAT ANITA HILL DID ALLOWED FOR MORE SPACE FOR DR. FORD.

AND I THINK THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT.

AND THE ALLEGATIONS ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

>> I REMEMBER WATCHING SOME OF THE TAPE.

I ACTUALLY USED TO COVER THE SUPREME COURT FOR A RADIO NETWORK, AND COVERED THE ANITA HILL HEARINGS AND I REMEMBER SOME TAPE WAS PLAYED DURING THE SUSAN BLASEY FORD TESTIMONY TO SHOW YOU THE DIFFERENCE, AND THERE WAS A SOUTHERN SENATOR NAMED HOWELL HEFLIN WHO ASKED ANITA HILL, HE SAID, PARDON ME, BUT I MUST ASK YOU, ARE YOU A SCORNED WOMAN?

>> I REMEMBER THAT.

ARE YOU A SCORNED WOMAN.

>> AND AT LEAST NOTHING LIKE THAT HAPPENED DURING THE BLASEY TESTIMONY, ALTHOUGH -- >> AND I THINK ANITA HILL WAS JUDGED DIFFERENTLY.

SHE WAS SINGLE AND SO PEOPLE HAD NEGOTIATIONS AROUND SHE MUST HAVE HAD SOME INTEREST IN HIM BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T HAVE A HUSBAND.

I THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF VALUE PLACED ON THAT.

I THINK ALSO AT THE TIME SHE WAS UNRECOGNIZABLE IN THE SENSE THAT PEOPLE HAD NEVER SEEN A BLACK WOMAN EDUCATE AT YALE BECOME A LAW PROFESSOR.

ALSO, ANITA HILL AT THE TIME DID NOT IDENTIFY AS A FEMINIST, AND SO PEOPLE WANTED TO SAY THAT SHE HAD A CIVIL RIGHTS AGENDA, AND SHE WAS ACTUALLY A CONSERVATIVE FROM OKLAHOMA.

SO ALL OF THAT WAS TOO OBJECT EXTRA DICK TRY FOR AMERICANS EVEN TO DIGEST.

>> SINCE HE WAS CONFIRMED, DO YOU FEEL THAT ANITA HILL'S TESTIMONY WASN'T GIVEN THE WEIGHT THAT DR. FORD'S TESTIMONY WAS GIVEN?

AND WAS THAT RACIALLY MOTIVATED?

>> WAS ANITA HILL LESS LISTENED TO?

>> UH-HUH, YEAH.

>> I WOULD SAY OF COURSE, BECAUSE.

27 YEARS DIFFERENCE.

SHE WAS THE FIRST ONE.

AND OF COURSE BECAUSE SHE WAS A BLACK WOMAN.

SO OF COURSE.

I THINK THAT WHAT ANITA HILL'S TESTIMONY DID WAS CHANGE THE LANDSCAPE FOR THE POSSIBILITY FOR PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD.

>> SINCE ANITA HILL, BOTH ANITA HILL AND DR. FORD TESTIFIED BEFORE THE SENATE, CAME ACROSS AS VERY COMPELLING WITNESSES AND BOTH WERE IGNORED, DOES THAT MAKE YOU THINK THAT THERE WERE NO RACIAL DIFFERENCES IN WHAT HAPPENED OR THAT THERE WERE BETWEEN THE TWO WOMEN?

>> WE DIDN'T COMPARE HILL AND FORD AND NOT COMPARE KAVANAUGH TO THOMAS.

THOMAS WAS OUTRAGED, BUT HE WAS COMPOSED.

AND HE WAS ALSO ACCUSED OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

AND SO KAVANAUGH WASN'T WHAT MANY PEOPLE MIGHT CONSIDER JUDICIAL AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY PARTISAN.

AND SO HIS INABILITY TO RESPOND IN A WAY THAT PEOPLE WOULD HOPE A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE WOULD WOULD HAVE PLAYED INTO THIS.

>> YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND BLACK FEMINISM AND NOW WE'RE ALMOST TWO YEARS INTO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT BLACK FEMINISM HAS CHANGED OR HAD AN IMPACT ON THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AT ALL?

>> I MEAN, I THINK WHAT MAKES THE ADMINISTRATION SO DIFFERENT IS THAT THE SUPPORT FOR BOTH OF THESE PRESIDENTS WAS LIKE AN INVERSE FOR BLACK WOMEN.

SO ONLY 4% OF BLACK WOMEN SUPPORTED DONALD TRUMP.

AND SO WHAT YOU HAVE IN THIS SITUATION IS THAT HE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO REACH OUT TO.

THE ONLY BLACK WOMEN THAT HE TRIED TO HAVE IN HIS CANDIDATE WAS OMAROSA, WHO OF COURSE WAS A REALITY TV STAR.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS VERY DIFFERENT FROM I WILL TALK ABOUT SOMEONE LIKE GEORGE W. BUSH WHO THE CONSERVATIVES WOULD SAY SHE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN A BLACK FEMINIST, BUT LOOK HOW FAR CONDOLEZZA RICE WENT JUST AS A BLACK WOMAN IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT PRESIDENCY.

AND SO TRUMP REALLY ISN'T A SPACE, I WOULD SAY, FOR EVEN MODERATE TO CONSERVATIVE BLACK WOMEN TO FEEL COMFORTABLE.

>> IS HE DOING DAMAGE TO BLACK FEMINISTS?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK SO, BECAUSE THEN WHAT YOU GET IS THE ORGANIZING OUTSIDE OF THE ELECTORAL POLITICS.

RIGHT?

SO THEN YOU GET PARTICIPATION IN SPACES LIKE ME TOO OR BLACK LIVES MATTER OR YOU GET BLACK WOMEN RUNNING FOR OFFICE, LIKE ONCE AGAIN, STACY ABRAMS.

AND SO I THINK IN SOME WAYS, IT'S NOT AS GALVANIZING.

>> I'M TALKING ECONOMICALLY.

>> YEAH.

>> ARE THERE FINANCIAL CUTS TO FEDERAL PROGRAMS THAT ARE HURTING WOMEN OF COLOR OR LOW INCOME?

>> YEAH.

SO ECONOMICALLY, THAT IS GOING TO BE FELT TREMENDOUSLY.

AND ALSO, IF YOU INCLUDE LATINOS IN THE SOUTHWEST INTO THIS, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING AROUND DACA AND THE BORDER AND WALLS AND ALL OF THESE THINGS, THIS PUTS A PARTICULAR STRAIN ON WOMEN OF COLOR WHO, YOU KNOW, AREN'T CENTRAL TO WHATEVER IS HAPPENING IN THEIR LOCAL POLITICS.

>> AND LASTLY, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR GRANDMOTHER.

TELL US WHO YOUR GRANDMOTHER IS AND HOW YOU'RE RELATED.

>> SURE.

>> AND HOW SHE INFLUENCED YOUR CAREER.

>> SURE.

MY MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER WAS MER UM DANIEL MANN.

IN 1943, SHE WAS IN THE ENTERING CLASS OF THE FIRST 11 BLACK WOMEN WHO WORKED AT NASA, AND SHE WAS AT THE HAMPTON, VIRGINIA , LANGLEY NASA, AND THESE WOMEN WERE THERE 20 YEARS BEFORE THE MOVIE HIDDEN FIGURES DEPICTED BLACK WOMEN BEING AT NASA.

SHE IMPACTED ME TREMENDOUSLY.

MY LEGAL NAME IS MERUM, SO I WAS NAMED AFTER HER.

SHE DIED A FEW YEARS BEFORE I WAS BORN, WHICH IS WHY I WAS NAMED AFTER HER, BUT SHE INFLUENCED ME BECAUSE OF THE STORIES THAT I GREW UP WITH ABOUT HER AND WE HAVE SOME SIMILARITIES IN THE SENSE THAT SHE HAD THREE CHILDREN AND SHE HAD A CAREER AND MY LIFE IS SIMILARLY SITUATED AND I JUST HAD A MAP FOR HOW TO LIVE THE LIFE THAT I LIVE.

SO I FEEL PARTICULARLY GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

>> IS ALL RIGHT.

TERRIFIC.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US , PROFESSOR HARRIS.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS ADDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.ORG/TO THE CONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

AND THE CHARLES A. F RUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TO